democratic managment

we (me, screwball and ninja) are talking to many top 10 players and try to get them to us. if any player changes faction, they usually get friends.

i propose adding to rules another sentence, that group of officers (3-4) can kick a member in a result of unexpected events - when we need 3-4 places for high class surgers or when a players def costs us victory, like it was done. we then talk, who to kick and post info on forums, faction chat, try to contact the player and give time to buy faction rewards if possible

hey kfsw,

I think this is a bit insane, no offence. Yes we want top 10 players(surgers) no we are not going to kick players who are "worse" just because this player
wants to bring his friends. If a player does what we stated in the rules that he has to do (lp and net point wise) he should be save. If we take these measures no member will feel safe because they can be kicked any time no matter how they preform!

second players def costing us victory, the net points gained system was invented to see to it that players dont lose the faction points. So we can't just kick a
person because his def deck was bad against a certain faction. But if his def deck is bad in every single war and losing us points(net) we should kick him
(after a warning). If however his def deck loses us points in every war but he still ends up with a postive net points we should just help him build a better def
deck.

The key aspect in our faction imo is that we are a social group of "friends" who help each other to achieve the best possible scores and ranking. If we implement
these measures you are suggesting we will lose this entirely because everyone's ass on the line, all the time.


greetings, Kani

Well i think kani said it all.

I can state it again, that we can't kick members just because we have a potential better player at hand.
We need to follow the rules, and if the rules are to weak or unclear, then we need to change them.

I think, perhaps, your topic title is a bit misleading, as the system you propose is much more plutocratic than democratic. I think, in order to keep a society (such as this faction) together it is important for enable everyone to abide by the rules. Such random (one might even say nepotist) measures as those proposed would create a fearful sentiment among members, who would not feel safe about their position is the faction.

I believe that happy players make better players. Since we are all doing this as a hobby, the driving force in our involvement should be to enjoy yourself. The level of seriousness, of cause, require that people are fully committed - and fear would not be a good motivator. Therefore people should be know the requirements clearly, so they are able live up to them. This is the sort of self-empowerment that has made this faction what it is today.

Let's leave the semantics and ad hominem allusion statements out, Noss, and excuse kfsw because his English is not as strong. His expression in English is not always the best, by far not as strong as you can, and we should give him a chance to explain. I didn't like how it was expressed, but I'd give him a chance to explain.

I'm going to raise a simple question, but it will decide how things will go. I hope the senior members and leader consider this very carefully.

Where do you want the faction to go?

When I joined this faction, I never imagined it'd come to where it is now. I'm having fun at this level of play, you get to try different decks and challenge yourself against good decks. All of us know that without Ninj, we would never have made it top 30 and 20. In truth, just before Ninj entered, it was just another regular faction, hoping to climb the ranks, and hoping to win wars. We accepted anybody and everybody, hoping to groom them and make the faction better. A small number surged, everybody else just clicked on the 'Fight' button and dumped stam whenever they pleased.

That was then, when we were a normal faction.

Things have changed, we've moved from a regular faction, to a semi-casual to serious faction. WBs brought us up here, and I think it should not be wasted. I think all of us, once we've moved this high, would not be content slipping far back down. We've managed to run through the ranks relatively unharmed. All of us should stop for a moment and look back at the streak of victories, and even up till now. Frankly? The victories don't mean as much as they should, because it's not a true reflection of our current state. We get rarely attacked because of 1 huge WBer supported by a few other WBers and a small team of steady surgers. Make no mistake, we've gotten a nice little team of surgers. But a good attacking team with a poor defence, takes a lot out of our attacking power. It makes some of us have to work harder to win.

This is the point where we choose what we want to do. Do we want to break into top 3, or do we just want to stay in top 10? I think we can handle both, to have just over 1/2 of the faction have semi casual players, and the rest be serious. The composition in the top 4, and top 10, is just about this. The happiness factor in our faction is highly subjective, and I think kfsw was throwing out ideas of how to get good experienced players into the faction, and he merely proposed an idea, although harsh, but he wanted the ball rolling.

Allow me to be very blunt about this, but I can assure you none of you senior officers, and even plex, even have the faintest idea of what it is to be in the top 4 spots. In fact, probably only kfsw has an idea, even though the dynamics have changed since he last led his faction. It involves a lot of time and effort into creating data and information, and having a forum up for discussion and such, barely even cuts the cake. For the senior officers, the so called 'privilege' of being an officer now is based on past glory, and that dynamics has changed. So far, only kani and plex have commented on what the requirements should be, and it's only because kfsw recently raised the topic that you should be demoted, Noss, that you started posting and asserting yourself. Requirements have been put in place, but when our own officers are basing themselves on past systems, I think those officers are out of touch.

It's ok to be out of touch, but sometimes, we should all learn to eat some humble pie. I have my faults, and I'd be willing to step down as an officer if many decide that I'm not pulling my weight. At the moment, I hope the officers who read this post consider their contributions in recent weeks. Again, this is harsh, but it is required. I've said this to plex before, the role of officer doesn't carry anymore than looking for wars in our faction. There is no meaning beyond that. At least I know that plex knows where he stands, but after him, I doubt any of the other officers are doing anything.

Yes, these members deserve to feel safe, it is just bad policy to randomly boot people. I firmly dislike such a stance as well. But let's take it this way: How many of the officers have done recruitment/talking to members as much? I know kani for one has, and I think he knows it himself that there are some members who most of us have barely talked to, let alone seen them in the channel. No matter how you try to twist and turn the argument, everyone's ass is on fire all the time with this weekly stats update. We've even included some leeway for those who are below in activity to come talk to us first at least, before we make the decision to kick them out of the faction. It seems that only I have talked about recruiting requirements more than anybody, but nobody seems to take these pointers in hand.

I've typed out long posts like these in several threads. I feel that these go unnoticed and not worked upon, and I feel unhappy about it. So let me be curt and ask all of you, where do you want the faction to go? Answer that, consider your contributions, state what you wish to do out here, and then we'll consolidate our faction properly.

nossualc wrote:

I think, perhaps, your topic title is a bit misleading, as the system you propose is much more plutocratic than democratic. I think, in order to keep a society (such as this faction) together it is important for enable everyone to abide by the rules. Such random (one might even say nepotist) measures as those proposed would create a fearful sentiment among members, who would not feel safe about their position is the faction.

I believe that happy players make better players. Since we are all doing this as a hobby, the driving force in our involvement should be to enjoy yourself. The level of seriousness, of cause, require that people are fully committed - and fear would not be a good motivator. Therefore people should be know the requirements clearly, so they are able live up to them. This is the sort of self-empowerment that has made this faction what it is today.

nossualc

i try to be man of the laws i propose. thats why i posted to demote you, cause in 11-04 to 11-14 period you lost really big amounts of points, only me and ninja lost more, but we had net scores at least 10 times bigger than yours. and i know you started acting a little bit like officer after i posted the demoting proposal.




i treat the game as an entertainment, but looks like we all like a little different entertainment. my goal is clear - to be rank 1 or at least rank 2 in ~2-3 months. some of you want just to play the game, but for me this whole grinding makes sense only if i have higher goal. cause playing the same fights over and over again can be entertaining in much smaller amounts of time too.

ninja is unique value in our faction that gives us the ability to compete against the best, we should do everything we can to raise our faction and dont rely on ninja too much. or we will become another rust, which struggles with ohio coming and going, cause they dont support him enough.

it may sound stupid but ninja chose our faction, so we can support him a lot and give wings to the factions or let him carry us. he does 15% of factions damage, so he replaces 7 standard members. top 5 members do 35% dmg of faction. this is quite normal in top 10, but not in top 3.

about democracy/plutocracy - there is always greater good rule in every democratic society. and it allows those that have power to gather and decide to exclude for greater good. i made this proposal to give the faction flexibility.

we should do a poll and ask members what they expect from faction. and write players points done net next to each reply

We are working hard to bring top players here. We have rules in place that will allow for them to come in based on these rules. Even if we had no rules they would be able to come since we always have inactive members and very poor players to kick. Im sorry to say but if 4 or 5 of the best surgers in the game choose us and help us get over the hump why would we not kick people who arent active and or who cant do well. I always kick members who never come to chat 20, who never do well and who are not active. I still see about 4 or 5 that fall under that category now. So no worries we are all on the same page.

Plexon has gotten more involved as has noss and sieht. Kani has taken a step back I guess rl has called but Im sure he will be back soon and as good as ever.

I want our faction to be #1. Everything I have ever done in life i do to the fullest and with intent on being the best. I am not cutthroat nor am I an asshole. We are not like a RUST or a MoM faction in our dealings with our members or other factions. We are however every bit as capable of being better then them in ability. We are seen as the good guys so lets keep it that way but that being said it is obvious we still have at least 10 members that can be kicked, 5 of them right away and another 5 that will need to improve or will be kicked eventually.

Lets continue to kick ass and address issues as they occur. Kfsw is trying to address the issues beforehand and I think we need to understand that as our faction stands now we can't win against any of the top 3 unless they are in active wars and not focusing on us at the time. Kfsw and Im sure all of us know that they can do 40000+ a war without wbs and can do 60000+ when needed. We need to close the gap or we will be in shock and members will quit when we start getting destroyed by the top 3 (This is happening to Rust now as they see they can lose). We have until we reach the top 5 to figure this out. I personally hope the 5 surgers come to our faction as they are game changers.

Now! Officers and Leaders of this faction you will be active as your most active times before, you will recruit new talent during times you have free, and for once we can stand together and show the tyrant world that the wikingz are no longer lost and we will find Victory we will find better talent we will find ourselves in the #1 spot. I know there are Vikings in all of us, I have Found mine. Now find yours!

Well said ninja.

There are several things in all you post i should comment, but in overall we have the same goal, and i think we all are prepaerd to make the hard choises.
I know we need to kick players, and make room for better players. If not we will be at the same level, and not improving.
Since ninja started, actually since august when i kicked every member and only the core was left (12 member or so), we have done a lot of improvments.
I see the road ahead and we are on currently traveling this in a decent speed.

The current rules will weak out the bad players, because the bad players will always be on the bottom on this list.
We might need to clearify the rules a bit, and specify them more, but i'll need to look into this again.
Also, there is nothing wrong with a discussion about this faction, either if it is the leadership, officers, politics, rules, and members other faction matters.
I see this as a healthy thing, and if we all keep in mind that discussing sevaral posibillities, will only make us stronger in chosing what hopefully will be the best action to do.

To answer the question from screwball, the main goal for this faction is to reach and hold #1 place.

I think that asking the question about what the members what with the faction, is a wrong way to do it.
We are the leadership and we tell what directions we want to go. If this is to much for a player, he can always retire/leave the faction if he can't meet the requirements.
That is a fair deal in my eyes. Of course it is hard to see an oldtime member that have been here to build the faction from almost nothing, leave the ship because he can't make it due to real life situations, or just not willing to put the time and effort in the game to do it. But that is his choise. If a faction dosen't have any goals to be better and improving, it will die very fast. We need to have something to reach for.
I've always been open with the faction goal, and this goal have changed, since we made our previous goal.
Also i think that a player that leaves the faction, can be proud of him self, knowing that he had a contribution in building the best and most successful faction ever

When it comes to recruiting new members, i think the way to go is to steal/recuit members from top factions that is willing to put the time in and have the knowledge and understanding to deliver high net gain in every war. If this is our strategy, we should pick the best from the best and recruit them over. Since we have the news of beeing new and successful and a good structure of our faction, i think this can be done given some time and effort from all officers and me included.

As stated before, even if some of the new players are leaders or ex leaders, it dosen't equal officer status here.
I want the people that have something that we need and they are willing to do tasks that they see must be done without asking to become officers. I think we should base our management on 5-10 officers at most.
Officerstatus should be something to reach for, and giving it out easly will undermine this. I'm open for a discussion if we should distribute tasks in a way or make a list of responsibilites for officers.

Let me say this simply:

If there is a consensus that we want the faction to make a grab for #1, we will need the faction to be about 80% serious players.

This has to be taken into account, because it will forever affect how we will set the rules.

Screwball: standard fluctuation of players should be max 10% in a period, so i think the rest should be serious playersf - 90%

Plex and ninja: thx for understanding my concept of clean laws that we adapt before they are needed.
Some of my proposals arent good in current environment (too much officers) and some are needed (a way to fasten kicking if we have high class replacement )
What i like most is that we share the same goals and will to discuss
I know i am the youngest officer here but try to be most productive and active

Plex: asking members to know their opinions i like and used many times.
I feel that giving them voice may always give new solutions IF problem can be posted on members forum.
I like and want to support the idea of 10 people in managment. But all of these officers should be active at least above average.

About stealing members - its ninjas speciality. I will try to get people from public channels. Though i think we need to talk again about requirements.
~210lp/week is not much. You can do 300 points net and still be able to get 210 lp

Since we abandon the 210 lp pr week rule and replaced it with bottom 5 net gain, this will increase it self for every 5 days.
If same person is on the bottom 5 two periods on row, they face kicking.
This should open up slots, and increase the level.

So there is no more min. requirements.

We need of course to set a new min. net gain, so we don't kick ppl after a while that gives us like +10k net or something., but i think we can add this to the rules in a few weeks time.

I must write something in recruitment thread. Need to use Lp gain or daily stam drops count, so recruits can calculate their possibilities on their own.
I suggest changing from 210 lp to 280 lp weekly. And write that it is minimum for now and more important are points net that grant surgers.

Rather than setting 280lp pr 7 days, we can change it to 210lp pr 5 days (10 lp more), for now.
We need to find a way to set it based on net points and a minimum nb. of fights in the near future also.

Just a question here, doesn't the natural flow of players going in and out of the faction allow us to recruit better players - over time? So those newcomers would be, with the sort of recruitment as ninja and kfsw (and others) as been so good to do, very good players thus improving the faction - over timer?

I don't believe people will quit if/when we loose to Top 3 factions if we have an environment of positive nourishment in our faction.

Since this is an evolving factions and we set your self new goals when we reach the current goal, things will have to change.
As stated before, i do not want to rush things, since i don't see any good things coming from this.
Our current members will have to improve them self as the requirements go higher when to goals get higher.
Our members will always have the option on leaving them self, but i think we should raise the bar in a pace that both the faction and current players are profiting from.

There will never be any sudden changes that will lead to multiple kicking of members, just to replace them with new and possible better players. This will have to take the natural time based on our rules.
Since we now have the bottom 5 system with warnings and a reason to kick if not improving them self in the next period, i think this will move fast enough.
In worst case we kick 5 players every 10 days.

I would rather become a faction where players WANT to join us based on good leadership, morale and environment to play in, even if it may cost us some top players at this time.
If we make it a policy to be attractive for players to join, they will line up to get a spot in this faction sooner or later. If we manage to do this perfectly, we can even choose whom to join us rather than hunt for them now.
I think this is the best way for our faction to become number 1 and still maintain the good things in this faction.

The 210 lp pr 5 days is only for recruitment, so the new players can compare to what they need to deliver. They should be told of the net gain system, and that we base it all on that.